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TERRY REED / JOHN CUMMINGS INTERVIEW

Hour 1

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On April 27, 1994, on Tom Donahue's now defunct shortwave radio
program, "America's Town Forum", Donahue's guests were Terry Reed
and John Cummings. Reed and Cummings are the authors of the
bestseller, *Compromised: Clinton, Bush and the CIA*.

Because Donahue offers audio cassette tapes of his shows for
those who wish to purchase them, I sent a check to Mr. Donahue
for a tape of that night's show. Unfortunately (although Mr.
Donahue *did* finally send the tape of another show, featuring
Larry Nichols), the tape did not arrive after I had waited a
reasonable time. So I again wrote to Mr. Donahue et al.,
including a photocopy of the cancelled check I had sent them and
demanding my tape.

I waited. Still no reply. Eventually I just gave up on ever
getting the tape. I was not too ticked off at Mr. Donahue because
I knew he was going through other troubles at the time. I figured
he was just not well organized.

Today, finally, after more than 4 months, after I had long since
given up on getting the Reed/Cummings tape, today, finally, it
arrived. I have just made a backup of the tape and am now
prepared to transcribe it.

Before I start, here is some info that was included with the
tape:

  Address to write to Tom Donahue: As of July 21, 1994
  Letters only -- No post cards or packages.

  Tom Donahue #24979077  C1
  Mansfield Law Enforcement Center
  1601 Heritage Parkway, Mansfield, Texas  76063

  At this time Tom does have access to a telephone, however he
  can only call "collect". He can't make local calls or 800
  calls, just collect calls. If you would like to give your
  permission for Tom to call you collect, do so by writing to
  Tom at the above address.

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TOM DONAHUE:
Good day. Welcome, America. Tom Donahue program. Thanks so much
for joining us.

Well many "viewer rats" are celebrating "Tricky Dick Day". Um, I
always have, and will, have respect for the President and the
*presidency* -- the actual office. The office holder at that time
and, I guess, the "statesman at large" -- I feel he caused a lot
of great damage to this country: regional government, for one;
selling out our POWs; took him 5 years to get us out of [the]
Vietnam war, when he [had] promised in his first term we'd be
out. He was a Rockefeller stooge and a Kissinger associate for
many years, until even *they* turned on him. {1}.

But so much for Nixon... Tricky Dick Nixon Day. We have two very
special guests. And the book is absolutely a blockbuster. It's
everything it's cooked up to be. The book is, *Compromised:
Clinton, Bush and the CIA*. How the presidency was co-opted by
the CIA. Terry Reed and John Cummings. Indeed, it's my privilege
and pleasure to have you on "America's Town Forum".


TERRY REED:
Thank you very much, Tom. This is Terry speaking. [CN Note: The
interview was conducted via a 3-way phone hookup.]


JOHN CUMMINGS:
Hi, this is John...


DONAHUE:
O.K. Hi, John.


CUMMINGS:
Hi! And it's a pleasure to be here.


DONAHUE:
We're gonna start off with Terry [Reed] first.

Terry, why... I guess, whoever selected the title, it's a great
title. Explain to our listeners what you mean by "compromised"
when it comes to Clinton, Bush *and* the CIA.


REED:
Well not only is that a word that's in the media a lot now, but,
having been in Air Force intelligence, that's a word used
considerably in, you know, intelligence training: talking about
compromising classified material. But I felt it was a very
appropriate title in that both George Bush and Bill Clinton
compromised themselves, um made themselves open for attack, by
being mutually involved in a clandestine operation which was CIA-
backed and run out of the state of Arkansas.

So that's basically the core, the core premise behind the title.


DONAHUE:
Some would be astonished that you would refer to *Clinton* being
connected in any way, shape, or form with intelligence agencies.
Many see Clinton as a coward and someone that shirked his duty
{2} and was not involved with *any* military or intelligence
apparatuses in this country -- except, maybe outside the country,
such as the KGB.


REED:
Well actually, I think if people will study it closely, there's a
rumor circulating that Bill [Clinton] was actually working for
the CIA station chief out of London, a man by the name of Kurt
Meyer(sp?), and during his trips to the USSR (which, you know,
became a matter of public debate during the '92 campaign on what
he was doing there). But I don't find it shocking at all to find
politicians involved with intelligence operations, since that's
typically how the CIA is trained to penetrate and subvert foreign
governments, is, you compromise politicians and get them on your
side, normally through blackmail.


DONAHUE:
Um-hmm [understands].

Let me ask you about your background. Why don't you fill our
listeners in, give us kind of a biographical sketch?


REED:
O.K. I was a true "baby boomer", born in 1948, raised in
southwest Missouri, 21 miles from Harry Truman's birthplace and
hometown, Lamar, Missouri. I'm from Carthage, Missouri. I'm the
oldest of 6 children, raised to be patriotic and serve my
country. I did so. I was in Air Force intelligence for 8 years. I
was in Thailand, in a top-secret outfit called, "Task Force
Alpha", that oversaw the secret war in Laos; the "deniable war"
that Richard Nixon was running -- very apropos day to be
discussing...


DONAHUE:
Yeah. Another prize, another accolade, that should be passed
along to Nixon for that, huh?


REED:
Yeah. Yeah, I feel, just as you stated, that he really let the
veterans down as well as the country. He tried to be a statesman
and a commander-in-chief simultaneously. And I don't think you
can do that.


DONAHUE:
Well I think he said it best on "60 Minutes", this was a replay
of his interview with Mike Wallace, in 1968, where he stated
emphatically that he'd rather be off writing books and lecturing
and maybe even being a student again at Oxford University [sic]
-- though he didn't go there. Clinton did. But he [Nixon] said he
got "caught by the political virus", and he said, "When it
catches you, there's no way..."


REED:
"...there's no antidote", I believe is what he said.


DONAHUE:
..no. Wait a minute. Yeah....


REED:
"There's no drug." Yeah, I saw that interview.

But yeah, I was in intelligence, in support of Air America's
operations over in Thailand. And that's where I met several of
the key players that would later surface in the Iran-Contra
scandal, you know, years later, in 1986.

But after becoming disillusioned with peacetime military, I got
out, honorably, and went into a field, a very technical field,
which just by accident... I mean, I chose it, I was attracted to
it, then found out once I was in it that it was full of KGB and
all kinds of espionage activity. So I was "resurrected" and
recruited to work undercover for both the FBI and CIA, monitoring
the pilfering of defense department secrets to Moscow by both
Hungarian firms as well as the Japanese.

And in the course of doing that, I met an undercover agent who
was using the code name John Cathey, in Oklahoma in 1982.


DONAHUE:
Let me stop you right there. We've gotta take our break. When we
come back, we want the rest of the story.

Terry Reed. John Cummings. The book is *Compromised*.

[...commercial break...]

DONAHUE:
We're back. Tom Donahue, "America's Town Forum", patriotism in
action.

In order to have a better phone sounding quality, we're gonna
have Terry out of the mix for just a few minutes here, and we're
gonna stay with... Uh, actually, we're gonna stay with Terry
[Reed] and come back to John Cummings in just a minute or two.

Um, Terry, let's talk about this [John] Cathey figure. Who was
that?


REED:
Well I was up to 1982. And through the result of working for a
little over a year and a half with the FBI in Oklahoma City, this
operation I was working on expanded overseas. And they had to
bring in the CIA and I was introduced to this guy, John Cathey,
who subsequently becomes Oliver North, the man reporting to the
National Security Council on the famous Toshiba case, the case in
which Toshiba Machine Tool was stealing American propeller
technologies. The Soviets wanted quiet-running propellers for
their nuclear submarines. And we had invented that and they were
using this Japanese machine-tool company to gain access to that
technology. That's how I came into play with Oliver North in
1982.


DONAHUE:
How long-standing was your relationship with Oliver North?


REED:
Well, for quite a while. It went on through, I must say, mid-to-
late '85, when I moved to Mexico. I was sort of handed off into
another operation that had found its genesis in western Arkansas.
But North and I, being veterans, hit it right off. And
philosophically we agree. I think if you read the book you know
(as I believe you have) right in the beginning, we start off with
an Oliver North conversation and our mutual disdain for...


DONAHUE:
..Nixon and Kissinger.


REED:
Nixon and Kissinger. Yeah.


DONAHUE:
Um-hmm [understands].


REED:
But our attraction came primarily not only through our
philosophical alignment but our shared war stories and what not.

But it put me in a perfect position in 1983, late 1983, to be
introduced to a man by the name of Barry Seal, Adler Berriman
Seal, who was also a CIA operative working out of a little town
called Mena, Arkansas, in western Arkansas. So that's where the
story sort of launches off into I think what is probably the most
explosive element of the book.


DONAHUE:
Absolutely. And we have Oliver North running for the United
States senate.


REED:
Um-hmm [understands].


DONAHUE:
Many feel he was set up and betrayed in the Iran-Contra affair.
But so many don't know his role in this {3}... And I'll let you
spell it out. What *was* Oliver North's role in Mena, Arkansas?


REED:
Well I consider this, him, the oversight agent. Certainly
reporting directly either to CIA director Casey or to someone
very close to him. The support that we received and the materiel
we had access to was just *phenomenal*. This was *not* a real low
key operation, even though it was in a very remote region of
western Arkansas.

But the Oliver North that *I* knew was sort of a very loose,
business manager type that didn't micro-manage anything but let
[Barry] Seal pretty much run the operation. And I was just, of
course, subordinate to Seal. And primarily my job, initially --
I'm a 3,000-hour plus flight instructor -- my job was to train
Nicaraguan nationals to fly aerial delivery aircraft, the very
same type of aircraft that was shot down, that exposed, the whole
Iran-Contra affair. That C-123 aircraft was the type of aircraft
that, ultimately, my students would be upgraded to down in
Nicaragua -- down in Honduras, actually -- once they graduated
from the basic program we had set up in Arkansas.


DONAHUE:
And was Mena, Arkansas, chosen for its topography and also
Governor Clinton, and they felt he would cooperate in
paramilitary operations?


REED:
The way I answer that, Tom, is I grew up in southwest Missouri.
And there was a *phenomenal* difference between the economy of
Missouri and Arkansas [when] I was a child. In fact, I've lived
along the border of Mexico and the U.S., and it was almost the
same radical difference when you crossed that state line back
when I was a younger man. You were in beautiful country, but very
impoverished. *Something* was holding the state back
economically. I, as a young man, didn't know what that was. But I
later came to understand its archaic banking laws, and a thing
called the Arkansas Usury Law that prevented banks in the state
from lending out money that exceeded 10 percent interest, and a
law that prevented their banks from having linkage to banks
outside the state, pretty much kept a ruling elite in power in
Little Rock and elsewhere. And kept the majority of the populace
impoverished.


DONAHUE:
You call it a Banana Republic.


REED:
We make a term that, certainly the political environment that
existed in Arkansas, even in the '80s, the early '80s, was very
comparable to a third world government environment in that you
had a very small, ruling elite.


DONAHUE:
L.J. Davis says the same...


REED:
Yeah.


DONAHUE:
..after his investigation.


REED:
I think he stole that from our book. But...


DONAHUE:
O.K. But he gave a lot of credit and attribution to both of you
during his interview with us.


REED:
O.K. That's good. I would sure have liked to have had honorable
mention in his article, since he did, in fact, use our book as
one of his research guides. But I guess that's journalism, if
John Cummings agrees with me.


DONAHUE:
Well, at least he's giving you credit throughout interviews he's
doing...


REED:
Great.


DONAHUE:
..coast to coast. So I feel very much... Well, we'll talk more
about that when we come back.

Our special guests, John Cummings and Terry Reed.

[...commercial break...]

TOM DONAHUE:
We're back. Tom Donahue, "America's Town Forum", patriotism in
action.

Terry Reed, John Cummings, the authors of *Compromised: Clinton,
Bush and the CIA* -- How the presidency was co-opted by the CIA.

And gentlemen, I have to admit I wish I had the time to read 550
pages of small, fine print that's in this book, and all the
documentation. I didn't. I've scanned it. Some day I will [read
it.] I highly recommend it though.


TERRY REED:
Great. If I could just finish with that one thought here, Tom,
about why Clinton may have done this: You know, certainly, if he
assumed power and became Governor, he had a *full* agenda of
trying to turn that state around. And certainly, if he wanted, if
he had this secret ambition all along to become President, he had
a lot of work cut out for him. He had to build an industrial base
and literally drag Arkansas up into the 20th century. And I think
one way he did that is by, through cooperation with the CIA --
which we get into deeply in the book, about the money laundering
aspects and actually government, certain industries, getting
involved in the manufacturing of weapons components.

So anyway, with that said, I'd like you to talk to John
[Cummings]. John's a great journalist and came to me, hounded me
for 2 years, to do this book. And I finally gave in. And, but
John's responsible for forcing me to sit down and put this thing
together with him. So...


DONAHUE:
One more question before we bring John into the discussion here:
What *was* going on in Mena, Arkansas? In a nutshell, tell us
what transpired and what you observed.


REED:
O.K. Let's talk about what was supposed to have happened versus
what I think *did* happen.


DONAHUE:
All right.


REED:
Certainly as I... I was working there for approximately 15
months, flight training. In the course of doing that, I became
aware that Barry Seal was flying weapons down to staging areas in
Central America. The weapons components, that were going into
making the completed weapon, were being drawn from National Guard
armories, in Arkansas, with the exception of some critical parts
that do have "tracking" built in -- for, not only for D.O.D.
[Department of Defense] purposes, but also for Alcohol, Tobacco
and Firearms [i.e., ATF]. Those pieces, that you literally could
not pull out of the Army inventory without triggering some kind
of an audit, were being built, initially, by a company called
Iver Johnson Firearms, which was up north of Little Rock.

So you had weapons procurement, and assembly and manufacture. You
had the transportation of those weapons. You had the *contra*
pilot training, that I was involved in. And later I discovered
that Seal was flying back in cash, in large quantities, on his
way back in from Central America.

That's what I saw, were those elements.


DONAHUE:
What about the drug connection? What about drugs for arms? Did
that happen?


REED:
Well I'm not gonna say it didn't happen. I didn't observe it in
Arkansas.

Now later on in the book, when I get down into Mexico and get on
the other end of the pipeline -- I was on the receiving end of
the pipeline up in Arkansas, and certainly those operations that
I just outlined were very compartmentalized, and not a lot of
overlap in personnel, with the exception of probably me. Because
of my background in manufacturing, I was able to sort of get an
overview of 3 facets of the operation. But once I went down to
Mexico: Yes. I came head to head with the fact that the people
that had sent me down there were trafficking *heavily* in
cocaine. That resulted in me divorcing myself from this entire
thing. And I think it's what's been causing me a lot of pain and
suffering ever since.


DONAHUE:
I understand the small banks in Mena and surrounding communities
were *swelling* with cash deposits.


REED:
Yeah. This IRS agent Bill Duncan, who we have in the book and who
was on this Pat Robertson show yesterday -- I don't know if you
saw...


DONAHUE:
No, I missed that.


REED:
..Pat Robertson did a 26-minute news segment on this whole story
yesterday and Bill Duncan was sort of the centerpiece of that
show. Because through his investigation, his investigative
efforts, you realize not only did this *happen*, just as we say
in the book, but secondarily, the containment mechanism that's
been put in place to keep this thing from going to court and
getting people charged for the money laundering aspects that
Duncan discovered is what I think is most interesting now.
Because that *does* show Clinton being involved in the short-
circuiting of funding for the grand jury. It shows him turning a
blind eye to requests coming from prosecutors, you know,
requesting state funds. Just by his share of... Well, just by his
attitude of...


DONAHUE:
He put the kabosh on it [i.e., put a lid on it, stopped it from
happening].


REED:
Yeah. He certainly did. He became part of the mechanism that
hammered the hammer, hammered the...


DONAHUE:
I never thought an IRS agent could be a hero, but maybe [laughs],
maybe... Maybe one of the Internal Robbery Services best and
brightest might have been a hero!


REED:
Well he's a C.I.D. agent, which is an undercover type...


DONAHUE:
[laughs] I've dealt with 'em, believe me! Most of 'em are morons,
but nevertheless, uh...


REED:
[laughs]


DONAHUE:
..We'll talk about the IRS another day, Internal Robbery
Service. We've done enough hammering on them.

We're gonna come back, and bring John Cummings into the mix. The
book is *Compromised: Clinton, Bush and the CIA*. Don't go away.
Back in seconds.

[...commercial break...]

If you'd like to join us, the talk line number, our Town Forum
line, coast-to-coast, is 1-800-298-TALK. 1-800-298-8255.

John, how'd you get involved with Terry Reed? And, it's a mammoth
book. I know you're a prolific writer, an award-winning writer.
You worked for *Newsday* and you've authored or penned several
books.


JOHN CUMMINGS:
Well. I came to Terry, following a trail that really started
many, many years ago, when I, as a very young reporter, was
assigned to cover Cuba and the Cuban exile machinations which
climaxed in the Bay of Pigs. And in the course of observing this
in Florida, I watched the CIA co-opt local officials and even the
Governor at the time, in Florida, to make sure that their
operations were not interfered with and that they could operate
with impunity.

And so I came to this gradually, knowing, you know, what the
telltale signs were.


DONAHUE:
Um-hmm [understands].


CUMMINGS:
If you say this to people, just like I just did, well they say it
sounds implausible. But when you observe it over many years, you
begin to see that they use the same methods over and over.

I was following Adler Berriman Seal, Barry Seal, whom Terry
mentioned. Now I knew him basically as a drug trafficker. I
believed him to be a drug trafficker who was a CIA asset, of
which there are many -- they use smugglers for many reasons --
but it turned out that he was really a CIA asset whose *cover*
was being a drug trafficker. And when I got to Arkansas -- and I
followed him up to Arkansas -- I began to see telltale signs of
an intelligence operation: an airfield out in the middle of the
woods, that nobody knew anything about.

And the more I dug, the more convinced I became that, obviously,
this was an intelligence operation. It was being protected,
certainly, by the federal government. But when you operate in any
area, you have to make sure that the state understands, and co-
operates with you. And I was really curious about that. And to
cut it short, I came across Terry [Reed], who at that time was
under indictment in Wichita, Kansas. And I approached him and we
began to talk. And I began to see, you know. *He* showed me the
connection between Oliver North, Barry Seal, and the whole
operation. At first, he did not talk to me about Bill Clinton; it
was much later on. And then I came to realize -- I had seen both
[political] parties "in bed with each other" in Florida, and
here, once more, was yet another local official, or a Governor,
who made a pact with the Devil.

Um, you mentioned before, the "virus" that bit Nixon. I call it a
power trip. And once somebody gets on that track...


TOM DONAHUE:
An aphrodisiac. Yeah.


CUMMINGS:
..Yeah, yeah... they want power and they do what they have to to
achieve it. And he made *his* Faustian deal with the CIA. Which
he probably felt was good for his state.


DONAHUE:
George Bush was a former director of the CIA. And George Bush...
I guess you never leave the CIA. You always have ties or
connections in some way unless you really t'eed them off and
you're running for your life.


CUMMINGS:
Well, there's an old saying. There's an old saying, "When does a
CIA asset cease to be a CIA asset?" And the answer is, "When he's
arrested." {4}.

And uh, but Terry, when I met Terry, he was not like the other
CIA, uh many of the CIA assets I had met. And it was very clear
to me that there was much more to this story. And of course Terry
eventually was acquitted of this charge, which was one of the
reasons I came to believe him. Because when I first heard his
story I greeted it with the same skepticism I would use with
anyone. But Terry's story checked out and the things he told me
were true. He *was* in the places he said he was. And I came to
see him as a kind of a "Rosetta Stone" {5} for me, as someone
who's been searching along this path for many years.


DONAHUE:
Hmm, I see. Now how... What are Bush's ties here? Is CIA
background and the fact that he was vice-President at this
time... How much "hands on" do you think Bush had with the Mena,
Arkansas operation?


CUMMINGS:
Lawrence Walsh says in his final report that George Bush was
knowledgeable and involved...


DONAHUE:
In the loop.


CUMMINGS:
I'm sorry?


DONAHUE:
He was in the loop, right?


CUMMINGS:
He was not only in the loop. *I* think, from what I can see, he
was in day-to-day charge of the operation.


DONAHUE:
That was my impression: the loop master.


CUMMINGS:
Yeah! And certainly (and Terry will get to this in a few
moments), at this meeting at this army base outside Little Rock,
where Bill Clinton attended, there was a CIA man, sent from
Washington, who turns out to be none other than William Barr, who
became George Bush's attorney general! And here was the man,
sittin' here, tellin' Bill Clinton the way things were gonna be!

Now Terry was a witness to that, and he can tell it much better
than I can. But there you have it all, right there.


DONAHUE:
Amazing. Amazing.

But you feel both of, vice-President Bush (and later, President
Bush), and Bill Clinton, were in on this? They were privy to what
the operation was to accomplish?


CUMMINGS:
Certainly. As was Ronald Reagan, in my opinion.


DONAHUE:
Ronald Reagan, if... I would believe he might have been out of
the loop. I suspect he may have been.


CUMMINGS:
Well, whether he had daily briefings or not I don't know. He
certainly... If he was out of the loop it was because -- It's
like I heard on a television show recently, in a drama, he said,
the President was sitting there with the CIA director and he
said, "There are times when there are certain things a President
just doesn't want to know." And he said, "And this is one of
them." And this could be one of those situations.


DONAHUE:
Well the *contra* effort, there was an obsession there with
Reagan, and he was still wanting to fight communism. And so if he
was told this was an operation that would benefit him, I'm sure
he would have given total acceptance and approval.


CUMMINGS:
Well Reagan was obsessed with this policy and he was determined
to see it succeed. I mean, he wore a t-shirt that says, "I am a
*contra*." I mean, the message was pretty clear.


DONAHUE:
Why was Barry Seal selected? Why was he put in charge of the
operation?


CUMMINGS:
Well, I can give you my answer. (I think Terry probably knows much
better.) He was a businessman, an expert with airplanes -- there
probably wasn't a better pilot around. And he had been recruited
way back in the early '70s, early on, by the agency. And he's a
man who had worked his way into the confidence of the very top
level of the Medellin cartel. I mean, he was an ideal man. Plus
he was, from the way *I* learned of Barry Seal, from what Terry
tells me, he was just a natural born leader and a very
intelligent man.


DONAHUE:
What about the Bush brothers? Bush's sons. Didn't they have
connections to the Medellin cartel?


CUMMINGS:
Well, Barry Seal alludes to that in our book. We... Terry didn't
go into that in great detail. I can tell you that when... Before
Seal died, he made some audio tapes of some meetings...


DONAHUE:
How did he die?


CUMMINGS:
He was assassinated, in Baton Rouge, Louisiana, 1926 [sic] by
the, uh the assassins were Columbians...


DONAHUE:
You said "'26". Uh, you meant 19-what?


CUMMINGS:
Did I say "'26"?


DONAHUE:
Yeah.


CUMMINGS:
1986.


DONAHUE:
1986. O.K.


CUMMINGS:
I beg your pardon. And he was assassinated. And I think he was
assassinated because he became a major liability for both George
Bush and Bill Clinton -- just as Terry became. And one of the
reasons that Terry, as he mentioned, did this book, was to get
this story out so that he didn't end up in an alley like Barry
Seal.


DONAHUE:
This book is his "insurance policy".


CUMMINGS:
In a way. That's one of the arguments I used with Terry: to tell
him that he would be safer with this story out than keeping it to
himself.


DONAHUE:
Um-hmm [understands].

We're gonna take our break. We'll come back. We're gonna continue
our discussion, our interview. Both gentlemen will be with us the
rest of this hour and next on many of these fine stations. Listen
up. And we'll be right back.

[...commercial break...]

TOM DONAHUE:
We are back. Tom Donahue, "America's Town Forum", patriotism in
action.

We're talking with Terry Reed and John Cummings. The book is
*Compromised*, and we're gonna make this book available through
our organization. [...Donahue extols the book...]

Um, you have a list that your publisher sent to me: The key
figures in *Compromised*. And many of them are the same figures
we're hearing in the Clinton cabinet, and through Whitewater, and
beyond "Whitewater rafting".

Let's talk about some of these figures and how they play a role
and what the media *should* be looking for, beyond "Whitewater
rafting".


TERRY REED:
Are you speaking to me now, Tom?


DONAHUE:
Who do we have now?


REED:
This is Terry.


DONAHUE:
All right, Terry. Go ahead.


REED:
Well I was actually thrust right into play with a lot of the key
people that are now surfacing in Whitewater. Uh, Seth Ward, a man
that I believe *USA Today* described as the mystery man in the
Whitewater scandal, a man that was deeply involved in the land
acquisitions and I think was a director of Madison Financial
Corporation.

Uh, Seth. Of course Seth's son-in-law is Webb Hubbell, number 2
man, was number 2 man or 3 man in Justice, that as you know
resigned. {6}.


DONAHUE:
Yep.


REED:
Bob Nash, a key Clinton economic aide, was a man that I directly
reported to. Nash is now with the Department of Agriculture;
another person that got a nice, fat-cat job.


DONAHUE:
And Bob Nash was the former director of the Arkansas Development
and Finance Authority [ADFA], where Larry Nichols once worked.


REED:
That's correct. Yeah, the same cast of characters keeps
reappearing throughout not only the Clinton administration but in
this book. Because *I* was put into play with them in a totally
different capacity. I saw this operation from the inside out, and
John [Cummings] reports about it from the outside in, which is
quite an interesting style. We're being told that it's very
effective to describe what was in the news during that time frame
and what the headlines of Arkansas read, [and] what was going on
behind the scenes, that were generating the cover-up of the Mena
scandal and things like that.

But John and I did not start out to write an *Iran-Contra*
book... I mean a Whitewater book. We were... I was working on
this through my memoirs, trying to get down on paper what was
happening to me as a result of my criminal indictment. And I was
keeping good notes, and just sort of to have a good record,
'cause things get pretty distorted in a courtroom environment.


DONAHUE:
I want to get into that, in just a couple minutes here. And I
jumped ahead, myself. I want to go back to the Bush brothers.


REED:
O.K.


DONAHUE:
The Bush sons. And also, you talk here about "Bond Daddy" Dan
Lasater. He was also involved with drugs. And let's talk about
the drug figures that you know, and what you *do* know, and share
that with us.


REED:
O.K. Lasater's name... I met, in fact the first day I met Barry
Seal, he was in the company of Dan Lasater and Roger Clinton.
Roger was the driver for Dan Lasater at the time; was his
chauffeur in Little Rock. But Lasater, the moment the money
laundering connection started to develop I realized it was
Lasater that, where Seal was doing all his "banking", and taking,
you know, initially briefcases full of cash for deposit there.
And then later on, duffel bags full of cash.

A bond trader, that worked for Lasater, was a man by the name of
Finis {7} Shellnut. Now Finis is Seth Ward's, or was Seth Ward's,
son-in-law at the time. And Seth Ward owned a piece of property
west of Little Rock called the "Triple S Ranch". And that is the
ranch in which Seal was jettisoning the large, large... what's
called a B-4 bag in the military, a large duffel bag, that can
hold about $3 million, complete with radio transmitters so you
can locate it. That money was being kicked out of Seal's planes
onto the Triple S Ranch. And the man that was retrieving the cash
was Finis Shellnut and, who worked for Lasater. And I feel that
was the direct conduit from that point into Lasater's company.


DONAHUE:
Does anybody know where this money went to? Has anybody been on
the money trail?


REED:
Oh yeah. I think that's what the federal people are doing right
now. You've got creation of ADFA, Arkansas Development Finance
Authority, cropped up in the middle of all this. And the source
of the funding has always been secret. ADFA's records only show
what they loan out.

When they have a bond issue, primarily at the state bank, for
practical purposes its mandate was to attract and finance
industry for Arkansas. What it became was a vehicle to loan money
to friends of Bill Clinton and a way to get quiet "campaign
contributions" [a.k.a. "bribes"] back, as L. J. Davis pointed out
in his article. I believe it was 25 percent? Or one-fifth, I
guess it was, of the 1990 campaign chest for Clinton came back to
him in the form of "contributions" from the recipients of ADFA
loans. So I think that's a style that you're gonna see developing
more and more, surfacing more and more, throughout the
investigations {8}, is how Bill was able to *stay* in power, and
keep his campaign chest full, while people that tried to surface,
to compete with him, were literally strapped for cash.


DONAHUE:
This is quite an incestuous web there in Arkansas, and the same
web or cast of characters have moved on to Washington, D.C., to
run the country.


REED:
Yeah, we've been told, this is a phrase that we were -- now I'm
gonna steal from someone else -- but on the surface, it looks
like a game of chess. But what you have to do is look vertically
-- and it becomes a game of vertical chess -- to see the
relationships *under* the table of the King and the Queen and the
pawns, and see how they're co-orbiting with each other. And not
only... I mean incest is a sort of a worn-out term these days,
but that certainly does fit the style of politics and banking
that exists in Arkansas. It's just hand in hand; it's like
wearing a glove.


TOM DONAHUE:
Back to George Bush and his sons: What do you know there? What,
what's... Because this book *does* focus on Bush *and* Clinton,
let's talk about their knowledge, or their involvement or
complicity, in the drug trade.


TERRY REED:
Well first of all, I'll whet your audience's appetite and use
this as an opportunity to tell you there is another book in the
works. This book [*Compromised*] became gargantuan, as you
mentioned several times, and we had to finally, you know, lop it
off at some point to get the thing to press.

But to answer that question, one has to study Barry Seal, and
know something about intelligence, as it works anyway. And it's
not like on TV. And it's not like the James Bond movies. You go
to intelligence school to learn how to compromise people, how to
blackmail them, how to get dirt on them. It's a very ugly
business when you get into the mechanics of how it actually
functions.

Seal was a master at that. A photographic memory, literally. I
never saw him write a clearance, an aircraft clearance radio
frequency, down. A new frequency was stored in his memory as if
it was a computer database. And as I worked with him and he
basically became my intelligence mentor, to teach me the civilian
side, how it functioned, and I was teaching him a few things
about manufacturing and, so we were cross-sharing information.
But I grew to really admire Seal's ability to stay one step ahead
of people that were either trying to control him, neutralize him,
or whatever. I think that style, though, is what lead to his
death.

He did share with me, on a trip coming back from Panama, he was
confiding in me. (This was about 3 months before he was killed.)
He was confiding in me that he had the ultimate "neutralizing
weapon" -- as he always called blackmail material --
"neutralizing material". He had gained information, originally
from the DEA, and then information that he had actually confirmed
firsthand, that the Bush kids were "dirty", as he put it. They'd
been *caught*, actually, ensnared, in a trap. And of course the
agents involved, once they realized who they had caught, let
everybody go.


DONAHUE:
We have Jeb Bush running for Governor in the great state of
Florida. We have George W. Bush here in Texas. Are either of
those two involved in anything like this, or perhaps in the past?


REED:
Yes. Through corporate linkage, which we're gonna define in
detail in the next book. But one must go back and think about the
fact that Zapata Petroleum had strong linkage to Mexico. I'm not
saying this as a teaser, but that's where our book is gonna begin
is, where Zapata came from. (Of course, that's what George Bush
ran down in Texas [i.e. Zapata Petroleum].) And *who* was the
connection in Mexico with Pemex that allowed Zapata to get its
drilling rights. And Seal, during that period of time was, in
fact, hauling drugs *for* the CIA and DEA, out of Mexico. And
that put him in a position to learn some of the players.


DONAHUE:
Let's further expound on the Bush connection, here. Mr. Bush,
former President, and his sons, and the "Bush crime family", if
you will. And then we'll come back, right after this break.

[...commercial break...]

Tom Donahue, "America's Town Forum". We're speaking with Terry
Reed and author John Cummings, the authors of *Compromised:
Clinton, Bush and the CIA*. How the Presidency was co-opted by
the CIA. And a picture of "Billy Boy" and "Skull & Bones" are on
the front.


REED:
[chuckles]


DONAHUE:
The book is available, we're gonna make it available through our
organization {9}. [...extols book and gives info on how to
order...]

Back to the Bush brothers and "King George" himself; let's talk
specifically -- their involvement.


REED:
Well, I'm reading right now... Have you seen a copy of the *New
Federalist* newspaper?


DONAHUE:
No, I haven't.


REED:
The current issue is dated April 18th. You ought to try to get a
copy of that. It's a well put-together article.


DONAHUE:
O.K.


REED:
It can be received through P.O. Box 889, Leesburg, Virginia
22075. {10}.


DONAHUE:
That's the official research arm of Lyndon LaRouche {11} ...


REED:
That's correct.


DONAHUE:
..and his group.


REED:
Now what they did, they took our book and quite interestingly
enough {12}, turned the whole scandal over and literally lit a
blowtorch on George Bush and family. And just to give you an idea
about this meeting I was talking about: I'd flown down to Panama,
to a meeting, and we were at a very critical juncture of
launching the Mexican operation. We were actually discussing
pulling the operation out of Arkansas and moving it down to
Guadalajara. And Seal and I had flown down together to attend
this meeting...


DONAHUE:
Because of the political connections in Arkansas, and the banks,
and everything that was needed financially, the topography and
the way it was set up, it *was* a good training base, wasn't it?


REED:
Oh very!


DONAHUE:
Similar to Central America.


REED:
Yeah, it was. My students commented on the mountainous region
being very similar in topography, *and* climate. In the Spring,
the fog, the way it hangs in the valleys. And we would practice
penetrating the fog layer and using that for camouflage to fly
low-level for our aerial delivery sorties. It was a very
interesting place. Uh, they have mosquitoes down there the size
of small birds, you know.


DONAHUE:
[chuckles] You were thinking about moving the operation.


REED:
It *was* moved, later. I was gonna read something to you, if you
don't mind. Because what they [*New Federalist*] did was they
took a lot of dialogue out of the book -- sort of condensed it.


DONAHUE:
O.K.


REED:
It explains a lot.

But this is Seal talking to me. This is a quote:

    "Terry, I've been working with several federal
    agencies," Seal began. "In the course of that business,
    a person can't help but run across some *very* sensitive
    information. It seems some major players in the Medellin
    cartel, whom I personally know, ran across some
    knowledge that's very valuable to both Republicans and
    the Democratic party. It seems some of the, George
    Bush's kids, just can't say 'no' to drugs. A guy in
    Florida, who 'flipped' for the DEA, has got the goods on
    the Bush boys. Now I heard this earlier from a very
    reliable source in Columbia. But I just sat on it then,
    waiting to use it as my 'trump card'. I got names,
    dates, places, even got some tape recordings. I even got
    surveillance videos catching the Bush boys red-handed. I
    consider this stuff *my* 'insurance policy'. It makes
    me, and my 'mole' on the inside that's feedin' the stuff
    to me, invincible."

And that's the end of the quote. Now...


DONAHUE:
We've got the cocaine Bush boys, and we have "King Daddy"
overseeing the heroin trade out of Burma and turning a blind eye
to it.

We'll be back. Tom Donahue, with "America's Town Forum".

                        [End of hour 1]


--------------------------<< Notes >>----------------------------
{1} Regarding Nixon: It's hard to understand *why* Clinton
ordered flags flown at half mast for *30 days* in honor of Nixon.
To my knowledge, this was unprecedented. I don't think even JFK
got the flag flown at half mast for 30 days. Talk about
collective insanity: 30 days for fu**ing Nixon!!

{2} "...Clinton as a coward and someone that shirked his duty..."
There were *many* who sought to avoid and/or avoided military
service during the Vietnam era. They keep repeating this "Clinton
the coward" stuff, and it's ridiculous.
   But *why*? Why are they drumming this into our heads, this
"Clinton the coward that shirked his duty" baloney? Hypothesis:
Are they conditioning us to swallow some future law that we *not*
"shirk our duty"? Are they conditioning us to accept a re-
instatement of the draft? Are they conditioning us to "not be
'cowards' like Clinton"? Are they conditioning us to be cannon
fodder for another one of their wars?
   Just conjecture. But then again, you tell me: Why all this
"Clinton the coward who shirked his duty" repeated again and
again?

{3} "But so many don't know his [Oliver North's] role in this..."
But after all, every damn fart in the O.J. Simpson trial is just
*so* much more important, *so* much more newsworthy, that of
course "many don't know North's role in this". After all, *really
important news* must take precedence.

{4} "When does a CIA asset cease to be a CIA asset? When he's
arrested." From the old TV series, *Mission: Impossible*, "As
always, if you are caught or captured, the secretary will disavow
any knowledge of your actions."

{5} "Rosetta Stone" -- A key that unlocks a mystery. The original
"Rosetta Stone" was discovered in Egypt by Napoleon's army. For
ages, a way to decipher Egyptian hieroglyphs had been sought,
without success. The Rosetta stone had chiselled into it a
message written both in ancient Greek *and* in the Egyptian
hieroglyphs. This was the key that unlocked the hieroglyphs.

{6} Webb Hubbell was, as I recall, deputy attorney general. He
may have been, in effect, Clinton's eyes and ears at the Justice
Department -- moreso than Janet Reno anyway, who is not part of
Clinton's bunch of Arkansas buddies that he brought with him to
Washington.

{7} Finus: pronounced FI-nus, with a long "I" sound as in "high".
For example, His Highness, Finus.

{8} "...throughout the investigations..." Was that what that was?
That thing that flashed by this summer, that whitewash? Was that
the "investigations"?
   What's Starr up to these days, or won't the media be covering
that until after the November elections?
   BTW -- Get set for Clinton to invade Haiti right around
election time. What a coincidence, huh?

{9} "The book is available..." No need to use Tom Donahue to get
the book. It is available or can be ordered through your local
bookseller. However, Donahue *does* offer audio tapes of past
programs. Information I have, current as of July 21, 1994, reads
(in part) as follows:

    Your tape order has been processed by volunteers...We
    are sorry about the delay in getting your order filled.
    [CN -- True, there was delay. Donahue's preoccupation
    with his trial may have been why.] ...Tapes of past and
    current shows (with fill-in host Bo Gritz) are still
    available at $7.00 for both hours [CN -- Full price,
    including postage]... Allow 2-3 weeks for delivery
    although we hope to do it faster. For a list of shows
    available send a self addressed stamped envelope to

    America's Town Forum
    P.O. Box 835
    Atlantic Beach, Florida 32233

    Most of each $7.00 tape goes for Tom's defense fund.

{10} *The New Federalist* is published weekly. Subscriptions are
available at $20 for 50 issues, $35 for 100 issues. Make checks
payable to "New Federalist" at New Federalist, PO Box 889,
Leesburg, VA  22075. Note: It has good info, but I suggest
reading it with "a grain of salt".

{11} In the past I have criticized LaRouche et al. This is not to
say that they don't write some good articles. They *do* put out
some excellent information, in my opinion. But be wary of turning
your mind over to LaRouche, as some have done. For that matter, I
would say to be wary, also, of turning your mind over to just
about any "authority": Conspiracy Nation, television, Noam
Chomsky, "experts", or you name it. The trick, it seems to me, is
to think for yourself.

{12} "...they [*New Federalist*] took our book and quite
interestingly enough..." Yes, I recall reading the *New
Federalist* account of the Reed/Cummings book. By reading their
account, you might miss the fact that this took place in Arkansas
and that, according to the book, Bill Clinton has much to answer
for. If one were to read only the *New Federalist* account of the
book, one might go away with the impression that the book *only*
features George Bush on the cover and not Bill Clinton as well.
The *New Federalist* coverage, amazingly, neglects the
Clinton/Arkansas angle. *WHY??* Why is LaRouche running
interference for Clinton?


 Brian Francis Redman    [e-mail]    "The Big C"
--------------------------------------------------------------
"Justice" = "Just us" = "History is written by the assassins."
--------------------------------------------------------------



TERRY REED / JOHN CUMMINGS INTERVIEW

Hour 2
======


TOM DONAHUE:
Good day. Welcome, America. Tom Donahue program. Thanks so much
for joining us.

Two special guests -- they were with us the first hour as well --
the co-authors of *Compromised: Clinton, Bush and the CIA* (How
the Presidency was co-opted by the Central Intelligence Agency).

We're gonna start off with Terry Reed, where we left off. And
Terry, we left off with the Bush family, "The Bush crime family",
as I call them, involved in the drug trade.

We know, through Bo Gritz and through many -- the Christic
Institute and Lyndon LaRouche, among other authors and writers
and journalists -- that we, 90 percent of the heroin trade came
through, came from Burma, and that the CIA was found to be
involved with General Koonsall(sp?). As a matter of fact, General
Koonsall's greatest customer was the CIA. And he wanted [to get]
out of the drug trade, but he just wanted some financial
assistance from the international community.

And George Bush's cohorts, Theodore Shackley, Richard Armitage,
were involved heavily. And Bush, I guess, acted like he didn't
know anything. But you're saying that his sons were involved in
cocaine peddling of some sort.


TERRY REED:
Well I'm saying, and I don't want to sound like a conspiracist,
Tom, because that's where I really get cross-wired: with a lot of
people that allege to know more than they claim they know.


DONAHUE:
Um-hmm [understands].


REED:
Let's go back to Thailand for a second. I can speak firsthand. I
was in Air Force Intelligence. We had an intelligence courier
service code-named, its code-name was "Scatback". And Scatback
was a series of Lear jets that flew classified material base to
base, just for intelligence purposes. And in 1970, Scatback was
"busted" as they say: All the pilots were put on house arrest. It
was found that they'd been couriering, in addition to classified
material, cocaine... er, heroin. One of their landing points was,
in fact, the M.T.(?), in Laos -- the headquarters of Air
America's operations.

So *that's* firsthand. Now this transition to the Bush family: I
can say this: John [Cummings] and I are deeply involved right now
into the ongoing investigation of the people that were
assassinated the very same day that Barry [Seal] was killed. In
fact, within 2 hours of *his* death, 4 other people were killed
worldwide. We're interviewing witnesses right now. We're pulling
Zapata Petroleum records. And it's my premise, based upon talking
to some other people that I can't mention over the radio here,
that Seal, that the Zapata Petroleum, was hauling a lot more than
petroleum. Certainly, you build a network of pipelines and
tankers, and what better way to trans-ship cocaine than to have
it submersed in crude oil.


DONAHUE:
Especially a company that was set up by, or at least we're told
was set up by, George Bush in "pulling himself up from his
bootstraps".


REED:
Yeah. Interesting "bootstraps".


DONAHUE:
How *was* that set up? What do you know about Zapata Oil?


REED:
Well, just from their records that have disappeared. As you
probably know, the material that was all supposed to be part of
the SEC [Securities Exchange Commission] public record when Bush
announced his -- I think it was actually shortly after his
pending place on the ticket, to run for vice-President. That
material was all shredded, allegedly by "accident". But we have
people in Houston, right now, that are piecing together what
records that can be found. We're finding a very, very interesting
linkage to Mexico and organized crime out of Mexico. Zapata
[Petroleum] *was* given preferential treatment for drilling
rights at a time when they were basically, were banned from doing
so -- uh, I mean American corporations were. Zapata sold an oil
rig to the ex-President of Mexico. There was just strong, strong
connection there. And we're getting into, John and I are making
the connection [in] the next book, into what, why Kiki Camarena
-- if you remember the DEA agent that was tortured to death? In
Mexico?


DONAHUE:
Um-hmm [affirmative]. Right.


REED:
Yeah, we've got a Mexican source that's telling us lots of
interesting material that I really can't go into in this
conversation, but we'll be happy to, once we get it fully
organized and hopefully get our manuscript out there; we would
love to talk about it.


DONAHUE:
O.K. Let's talk about the Bush boys, the sons. And we were just
starting to touch on that and we were out of time, in the first
hour.


REED:
Well all I know is what Seal... At this point, all I know is what
Seal told me: that there were surveillance videos and that he'd
made his, you know, in intelligence parlance and police language
you have what is called your "safe kit" -- material stashed
somewhere to get you through an ordeal. To basically make you, as
Seal said, "invinceible". Obviously, that didn't work for him.

But I do believe that with the combination of the audio tapes,
that John Cummings and I presently have, a strong case can be
made that they wanted Seal dead. In fact, the working title of
this book is *Fatal Knowledge*. You can see from that title
selection that the knowledge Seal was amassing, to keep him safe,
ultimately led to his demise.


TOM DONAHUE:
O.K. For those listeners just joining us, give us an overview of
your involvement with Barry Seal and what you were doing in Mena,
Arkansas.


TERRY REED:
O.K. I met... I was introduced to Barry Seal through Oliver
North. I met him in late 1983, in Arkansas. Seal sought me out --
he'd been told that I had certain talents, primarily
manufacturing or flight training, so that I could contribute to
the CIA's efforts to bypass the Boland amendment -- to train a
small group of pilots, Nicaraguan nationals, to basically
liberate {1} their country, to help fly aerial sorties, you know,
fly supplies into the guerrilla warfare action, to supply their
own soldiers in the field.

In Arkansas, I was part of an operation that flew guns,
manufactured guns, and trained Nicaraguan pilots. Certainly it's
now the contention of many that that also included flying cocaine
back into the United States. All *I* saw was cash being flown
back in. {2}.

But Seal and I became very close, became friends, throughout the
course of my 15 months of training there. Barry was a very
intelligent... As John Cummings said, he was an excellent pilot,
a very intelligent businessman. I saw him in a totally different
light than he's been portrayed, and I hope the book,
*Compromised*, is actually giving him, rewriting the epitaph, or
giving him the *proper* epitaph that I felt he deserved all
along.


DONAHUE:
But he helped manage the operation, in Arkansas. I mean, he was
really the "project manager", if you will.


REED:
Yeah, Barry reported to [Oliver] North, from what he told me.
North provided the oversight and Seal provided the mechanics of
it.

Seal had gone to Mena in 1982, to actually move his aircraft
operation up there. He got in business with a man named Fred
Hampton, and built a new hangar at the Mena airport. The company
was called Rich Mountain Aviation, and in this new hangar was
where the majority of the maintenance was done on, not only
Seal's aircraft (which were numerous), but also aircraft
belonging to other federal agencies, i.e., DEA and U.S. Customs,
that were being modified for -- covertly -- for sting operations
into the Medellin cartel and into Central and South America.

So it became a clandestine hub. *Beyond* Seal's operation, there
was a lot of other intelligence activity going on in this little
town of 5,000 people, only a few miles from the Oklahoma state
line, in western Arkansas. {3}.


DONAHUE:
The name that Oliver North used, the last name was "Cathey"?


REED:
Yeah. C-a-t-h-e-y. I was introduced to him...


DONAHUE:
John Cathey.


REED:
Yeah. I was introduced to him in 19... February of 1982, as CIA
agent John Cathey, based out of Toronto, Canada, and working on
the illegal flow of our defense technology that was being
pilfered by a combination of Japanese and Hungarian firms and
bootlegging it to the USSR. That's what got me involved,
initially, in the civilian side of intelligence gathering was
because of my Air Force background and, quite frankly, it was
because I happened to be at the right place at the right time. I
was approached [and asked] if I wouldn't help monitor those
efforts. And I actually did travel behind the iron curtain, on
one occasion, to actually spy on them; to come back with
information about their manufacturing capability as it relates to
computer memory which is a critical element in weapons designs --
primarily the cruise missile technology that we see on TV today.
That memory technology in those guided missiles, that are
unjammable, comes from the actual machine tool industry. And most
people don't realize.


DONAHUE:
Hmm. What were the major undercover projects that you were
involved in, involved through, over the years?


REED:
Well, in 1980 I moved to Oklahoma and ultimately became the vice-
president of the trading company, a small firm that was trading
in technology. We were involved in retooling America. The oil
business -- in Oklahoma, Texas, Louisiana, and southern Arkansas,
primarily -- was growing rapidly and was retooling, was
automating and modernizing. And my firm was signing trade
agreements with Japanese and European firms and we were importing
machine tools to... These were machine tools that run pretty much
unmanned. The industry is referred to [as] computer and numerical
control, or C&C. And the C&C machine tools had very sophisticated
memory in that day. In 1980, it was referred to as "bubble
memory". And bubble memory technology had actually been developed
by the United States Navy. The U.S. Navy, working on a grant, had
been putting together the bubble memory technology to work with
torpedoes for... The torpedoes would actually turn corners.


DONAHUE:
Um-hmm [understands].


REED:
And, you know, not have to go straight line trajectory.

The U.S. Air Force wanted that same memory technology to put into
cruise missile technology, which in 1980 was still a pretty young
industry.

But the civilians had access, through this joint venture, the
civilian machine tool builders had access to this memory
technology. And I was sitting there in the middle of a field
that, quite frankly, all I cared about in 1980 was making up for
my lost time, monetarily, from my 8 years of the U.S. Air Force
time.


DONAHUE:
Would you say your most infamous project (or famous, to some)
would have been the Mena, Arkansas training... the *contra*
pilots? And also, what you found to be *beyond* just a training
ground for *contras*.


REED:
Well as far as total voluntary participation, yes.

I found the travelling behind the iron curtain to be the most
*stimulating*, from an *exciting* point of view, thinking about
the consequences of getting caught. I didn't feel anyone was
gonna get caught at Mena. Certainly you had the Arkansas state
police, and the FBI, were actually running cover for this
operation! The U.S. attorney's office in western Arkansas became
the "black hole" of data. All federal authorities were reporting
their findings about what we were doing to a U.S. attorney that
was not indicting anyone.

So the interesting part that I've witnessed is, how fragile our
system is.


DONAHUE:
And surprisingly, the only person that tried to blow the lid on
this was IRS undercover agent, or CID agent, Bill Duncan.


REED:
Well, there were more than him. But we certainly detailed a lot
of his information, since a lot of it's public record and he
cooperated with John [Cummings] and myself. But the local sheriff
there, a man by the name of Al Hadaway... Al Hadaway and his
deputy, Terry Capehart(sp?), were on this thing from the very
outset, and were surveilling, you know, everyone coming and
going, taking photographs and diligently giving their material to
the FBI. What *they* didn't know was, the FBI was "in on it" and
was taking their information and literally doing nothing with it
other than cataloging it in Little Rock...


DONAHUE:
So the sheriff thought by cooperating and passing this
information along to the feds, he had done his duty.


REED:
Yes! That's correct. We have secret, classified messages that I
have been able to get through my court discovery {4} in which
they're saying, you know, they've notified the sheriff not to
seize certain aircraft; that the DEA does, in fact, have a vested
interest in some of Seal's aircraft.

So you have the right hand of law enforcement fighting the left
hand. {5}. It's a very interesting situation to see it all fall
apart and not work as a result of the White House's wishes to
circumvent Boland.


DONAHUE:
We want to talk about consequences to one's actions -- especially
if you go public, like you have. And let's talk about what
happened to you: your indictment, your court case.

We'll be back with that, and we'll also bring into the mix John
Cummings, investigative reporter *extraordinaire*.

[...commercial break...]

TOM DONAHUE:
Welcome back. The book is *Compromised: Clinton, Bush and the
CIA*. How the Presidency was co-opted by the CIA. Terry Reed,
John Cummings, are our guests. We'll be going to your phone calls
in just a few minutes.

The book is available (I think) through some of the bookstores.
{6}. But we're making it available to our listeners. [...gives
info on how to order book...]

I want to go straight to John Cummings, investigative reporter
and co-author of this book. John, why did Terry [Reed] come under
attack? There are consequences when you speak out.


JOHN CUMMINGS:
Well Terry, of course, has a lot of knowledge that's very
detrimental to some very big people -- namely, George Bush and
Bill Clinton.

But a point I wanted to make, above and beyond that, is one of
the fascinating aspects to this story. And I know everyone's
focusing on Bill Clinton being involved, and George Bush. But a
very parallel story is occurring south of the border, south of
*your* [i.e. Texas] border, with Mexico. One of the people...


DONAHUE:
You mean our "NAFTA Neighbor"?


CUMMINGS:
Huh?


DONAHUE:
Our "NAFTA Neighbor".


CUMMINGS:
Your "NAFTA Neighbor", that's how...

And Terry was put in play with a man, he was a young, aspiring
Governor (like Bill Clinton) of a state in Mexico -- Michoacan --
and now he's the leading candidate, or *a* leading candidate, for
the President of Mexico. And that's Cuauhtemoc Cardenas.

And he was put into play, with Terry, by the CIA so that they
could set up some kind of permanent facility in Mexico for the
production of arms and other activities.

And I... To me, it's fascinating that you have this parallel
story of a Governor in Arkansas, and the Governor of Michoacan.
And this is a man who the polls say, if they don't have a rigged
election this time, could be the President of Mexico by the end
of this year. {7}.


DONAHUE:
So it wouldn't be stretching the point to say that many
Presidential creations, here and abroad (or, to the south of our
border), are... they're CIA creatures, or creations.


CUMMINGS:
Well many leaders in small, third-world countries *are* CIA
creations. I mean, we have 'em all over Latin America. Uh, as far
as I know, this is the first one in the United States. But I
could be wrong about that.


DONAHUE:
Hmm. Interesting. And your involvement with Terry Reed: I know
you touched on it in the first hour, but expound on that. Why are
you involved with Terry and working with him so closely?


CUMMINGS:
Because it's a story I've been searching for for a long time!
Ever since 1961, when the Bay of Pigs turned into such a
disaster. And it's the confluence of political influence with
intelligence operations, both [political] parties being "in bed
together", and the confluence of guns and drugs.

And Terry was talking before about the people in Arkansas who
*were* trying to investigate. And it's interesting (and we have
it in the book): there's a photo of Terry, taken by one of the
local police, standing in front of the hangar at the Mena
airport, in 1984 -- just at the time he said. In fact, it was a
very key piece of evidence for me, that made me convinced that
the story (this was early on), that the story he was telling me
was true.


DONAHUE:
Why was Terry indicted? What's the circumstances there?


CUMMINGS:
Well, when Terry found out about the drugs in Mexico being run
out of his hangar, he said, "I'm no longer," (you know), "gonna
be part of this. That's not something I want to be involved in."
And at that point he made what he thought was an honorable exit
from Mexico, only to find out that certain people in Arkansas,
along with the Justice Department, had targeted him for
indictment. And possibly death.


DONAHUE:
And, to be indicted for what reason?


CUMMINGS:
He was indicted for allegedly stealing his own airplane and then
collecting the insurance on it. Which of course was untrue, and
he was acquitted by a judge of that charge -- after the
government, after two-and-a-half years, announcing it had no case
and it had no evidence.


DONAHUE:
And about that time...


CUMMINGS:
..decided to shut him up. I mean they were trying to close his
mouth.


DONAHUE:
So Terry was speaking out at that time.


CUMMINGS:
No, but they were afraid. Terry wasn't speaking out at that point
in time, but they were afraid he would.


DONAHUE:
Because he said, "No more," and he...


CUMMINGS:
[There has been contention for who will speak (above). Now
Cummings interrupts] I'm sorry. They considered him a "whistle
blower" I guess.


DONAHUE:
Or if not, a potential whistle blower because...


CUMMINGS:
A potential whistle blower.


DONAHUE:
..he separated himself and was parting ways.


CUMMINGS:
Yes. And I'm sure George Bush, who was running for election at
that point in time, did not want to have Terry Reed talking, nor
did Bill Clinton either, in Arkansas.


DONAHUE:
Bottom of the hour pause here. Right back. Stay tuned.

[...break...]

Tom Donahue, "America's Town Forum," patriotism in action. Terry
Reed, John Cummings, are our special guests. The book is
*Compromised: Clinton, Bush and the CIA*. How the Presidency was
co-opted by the CIA.

Are we ready for calls, gentlemen? Or John, did you want to say
anything more before we...


CUMMINGS:
No, that was the only point I wanted to make -- about Mexico.


DONAHUE:
O.K.


CUMMINGS:
I thought it would be of some interest. Particularly...


DONAHUE:
What was the time line (before we go to the calls) on the
indictment and Terry being cleared of those charges?


CUMMINGS:
Well, it was two-and-a-half years.


DONAHUE:
Give us the exact dates on those.


CUMMINGS:
He was indicted, I believe, on June 1st, 1988... That's right.


DONAHUE:
'88. O.K.


CUMMINGS:
And he was acquitted by a judge on November the 9th, 1990.


DONAHUE:
Hmm. O.K. And obviously George Bush would have been deeply
concerned about this information getting out if... He wouldn't
have been President. And certainly Clinton knew of *his*
Presidential hopes and aspirations.


CUMMINGS:
Well it's particularly true, because one of the people who was
Terry's superior in Mexico was a man named Felix Rodriguez, who
boasts openly about his relationship with George Bush.


TOM DONAHUE:
Give us a little background on Mr. Rodriguez. Many other guests
have talked about him.


JOHN CUMMINGS:
Mr. Rodriguez?


DONAHUE:
Yeah.


CUMMINGS:
Well Mr. Rodriguez is a very fabled character in the Cuban exile
community, in Miami. He is the man, his claim to fame, is he's
the man who caught Che Guevara. Or, not caught him, but who went
to interrogate him for the CIA. He cut off Che Guevara's hands --
some say before Guevara was killed -- as proof that they did in
fact have *the* Che Guevara. And since that time, he has
travelled in some very important circles -- particularly in
Florida and in the circle of George Bush and others -- as "the
great anti-communist patriot".


DONAHUE:
Hasn't he been indicted, and the finger pointed at Mr. Rodriguez
by many Latin American countries, as a major drug runner?


CUMMINGS:
He's never been indicted. He has been *accused* of being involved
in drug operations, but... something he has steadfastly denied.
{8}.


DONAHUE:
How about the Noriega connection to Bush? Have you done much
research in that area?


CUMMINGS:
Well not beyond what, not really much beyond what was talked
about. In the book [*Compromised*], Terry [Reed] talks about
Rodriguez discussing with [Oliver] North and others about finding
a substitute funding for Arkansas' money laundry, out of Panama.
This was after the agency was threatening, agency [CIA] had
decided to leave Arkansas. And Terry can tell you about that much
better than I.


DONAHUE:
Let me just... We'll touch on that before we go to the calls.

Terry, when did the Mena, Arkansas operation shut down? And where
has it moved to?


TERRY REED:
Well for all practical purposes, it was over by December of 1985
-- the flight training aspects of it. We graduated 24 students.
So the pressure was off to get some Nicaraguans at the controls
of the aircraft in Central America. In fact, they were going
along to be upgraded into C-123 aircraft, in like an "OJT", or
"on the job training" program down there.


DONAHUE:
How about the drug and money-laundering aspects of this
operation?


REED:
Well, by that point... See, my information gets a little sketchy
as of September of '85 because, what happened was, the decision
was made to put together... These are very business oriented
people that are involved in this decision making, and they wanted
to see what would be necessary to put together what is called a
"front company", a CIA proprietary, to run on Mexican soil. It
would pretend to be a high-technology trading company, as I was
familiar in running. So I was tasked with putting together a
business plan, to see how that would all transpire.

My direct knowledge of what was going on in Arkansas in 1986 is
simply that the cash flights were still occurring when I left
Arkansas in the spring of '86. It was still ongoing, but we
certainly were making every effort to move the entire operation
offshore.


DONAHUE:
So it looks like Mexico could really be the primary training base
and source of... I guess that would be the actual location.


REED:
Yeah I actually moved there and lived there for the better part
of 19 months. And right at a little town south of Guadalajara,
called Chapala, a beautiful little retirement community. I lived
there and my wife taught school there and I had... My third son
was actually born in Guadalajara.

But up at the Guadalajara airport, my company, *Maquinaria
Internacional* [International Machinery], was based to, on the
surface, be trading in machine tools and high technology --
automating Mexico to get their export economy built up. But in
reality, we were warehousing and storing guns, and had plans to
build this manufacturing facility, that John had mentioned, down
in a little town, Morelia, Mexico -- the capital of the state of
Michoacan.


DONAHUE:
So our "NAFTA Neighbor" will be the next Mena. I mean, that's
where we can operate out of.


REED:
Well, let me take the other side of that story. I mean, I think
we're buying Mexico. I think what's going on here is, Mexico's
becoming our colony. Our 51st state, someday, is slowly to be
acquired through... Of course my background goes back to
intelligence linkage, but I think Cardenas is the man for the
job. I certainly hope my book does not interfere with him *being*
President of Mexico. Somebody needs to disrupt something with the
PRI [Mexico's ruling political party since at least the 1930s],
certainly the most corrupt, evil political outfit *I've* ever run
across. And I can say that firsthand: I lived there. They're to
be feared.

But I'm not saying that I'm for the CIA acquiring all foreign
governments [i.e., Cardenas is allegedly a CIA asset]. But I
think Cardenas is the man for the job down there.


DONAHUE:
O.K. Let's go straight to phone calls. Jeff, in Dallas: Go ahead,
Jeff.


JEFF:
Good morning, gentlemen.


DONAHUE:
Direct your question to either Terry Reed or John Cummings.


JEFF:
Mr. Reed, do you recall the name of the DEA agent who was
tortured?


REED:
Yes. "Kiki" Camarena. Enrique Camarena.


JEFF:
O.K. Wasn't he from Texas?


REED:
I believe he was from southern California. (I think my memory
serves me correctly.)

Yeah, he was killed in 1985, prior to me moving there [i.e., to
Mexico]. Yes, he and his pilot, his DEA-assigned pilot, were both
tortured to death. And of course that's been the subject of a lot
of speculation on what he really knew, and why they did what they
did, and, actually, who was there during the interrogation. And I
don't believe anybody... I believe there's some people in prison
for his death. But as you recall, they released the Mexican
doctor that actually administered drugs to him to keep him awake
during his interrogation. [The Mexican doctor] was, you know,
kidnapped off the streets of Guadalajara and brought up into the
U.S. and was later released, I believe.


JEFF:
Uh-huh. Well I think his name should be remembered and people
should know that...


REED: Well I do, as well.


JEFF:
..that he died, you know, for a cause. {9}. And -- What was his
name? His last name, once more?


REED:
Camarena. Enrique Camarena.


DONAHUE:
Thank you, Jeff.


JEFF:
All right.


DONAHUE:
O.K. We're gonna move on to Jack, in the great state of
Massachusetts. Go ahead, Jack.


JACK [Phone caller]:
Hi. I have a couple of quotes for you gentlemen.


TOM DONAHUE:
All right.


JACK:
And a couple of questions: one on Bush, one on Clinton and the
CIA.


DONAHUE:
Mmm-hmm [understands].


JACK:
First quote comes from Elie Wiesel -- you know, the holocaust
man, the great Elie Wiesel? -- who says that the CIA should be
abolished! The quote is, "The CIA should be eliminated."

I guess, you know, one wonders... The abuses...


DONAHUE:
So does former President Harry Truman...


JACK:
That's right. Yeah.


DONAHUE:
..or did.


JACK:
Anyway. Also, another quote is from, I guess the second leading
man in the government, the Speaker of the House, leader of
Congress, Jim Wright, when he was the Speaker from Texas. And he
said that the CIA (this is about a year before he was forced
out), he said, "The CIA causes all these riots and troubles and
assassinations and wars all around the world." I don't know if
you remember that famous quote or not.

My two questions, though, uh the first one on Bush and one on
Clinton: Do you remember that, in the late '80s, that this
memorandum came out about George Bush? It said that there was *a*
"George Bush", who was a CIA agent or operative, in Dallas the
day that the President, our beloved President Kennedy...


DONAHUE:
..either the CIA or the government reported to Bush. Um...


JACK:
Bush denied this emphatically, that he was the "George Bush"
agent for the CIA. I mean, God forbid he was the trigger man or
whatever. But the point is that, you know, that that was
reported. That memorandum. I was wondering if your two guests had
heard *that*.


DONAHUE:
All right. Thanks, Jack.


JACK:
And my question [cut off]...


DONAHUE:
I want to go back to our guests here on this.

Uh, George Bush's connections. Some have alluded he was involved
somehow, maybe even on the fringes, of the Kennedy assassination,
and he was in the CIA at that time.


TERRY REED:
Well I have no personal knowledge of that, of course. But I
think... I say this about... To address the question about the
CIA: We, right in the front of the book... I went to the Harry
Truman archives, the library, and found a letter that we put
right in the front of the book, about Truman's views on the CIA.
Because Harry Truman is the man that formed the CIA. {10}.

Now I, like Harry Truman, feel that the CIA's mission was to gain
intelligence. And I think we still need that, especially now,
with the USSR no longer in business and the fight over plutonium
and everything else that's going on. {11}. But I don't think that
the CIA's mandate should be to *tamper* with foreign governments.
I think, as Harry [Truman] indicated in that letter, in the front
of the book, (which is a real short letter, I'll read one
paragraph...)


DONAHUE:
Why don't you do that.


REED:
It says, "The CIA was set up by me for the sole purpose of
getting all the available information to the President." Period.
"It was *not* intended to operate as an international agency
engaged in strange activities. Sincerely yours, Harry S. Truman."

Being a man that speaks rather directly -- and I think I'm the
same way. I was raised near his home and we're taught to speak
pretty straight in southern Missouri -- I agree with Harry.


DONAHUE:
He commissioned it. He was the architect of this, believing that
this agency would serve the President and the Congress and give
the information we needed on potential enemies or perceived
enemies at that time. But it is now an agency completely out of
control, that doesn't seem to report to anyone and has a
*massive* budget. My understanding is a $30 billion budget?


REED:
Well its budget is even classified, right?

But no, it [CIA] wasn't even to report to Congress, Tom, it was
just to him [Truman]. If you study the history of when he took
over the Presidency -- Roosevelt was such a strong President and
had been in office for so long, when Harry assumed the office, he
didn't trust the people around him. They were disobedient. They
lied to him; he caught them lying. Because, as he put in one of
his letters that I've read, the Department of Agriculture had a
better worldwide intelligence network than he did! He was caught
between the military lying to him, and the Department of
Agriculture, which had agents in the field monitoring crops
around the world. It was an amazing environment when he took
over. And I think it was almost a coup environment. So he formed
the CIA, literally with a handful of people. I believe it was,
initially, 5 guys. And then it grew into 8 or 10. And then, of
course, it just kept mushrooming...


DONAHUE:
And it became a greater creature, a monster, if you will, than
all others put together, or combined.


REED:
But he had it under control, until Congress took it over.
Congress became jealous of the fact that he had access to
information and they didn't. And a major play was made to
basically turn it into a federal agency. And they were successful
in doing that.


DONAHUE:
O.K. Let's -- and I just want to thank the sponsor. We're not
gonna take the "time out" here except just to thank Swiss America
Trading [...]

Bill Clinton. His involvement. *When* did he know? *What* did he
know? How much involvement in this Mena, Arkansas, either
operation or cover-up, do you believe the President to be?


REED:
Well John [Cummings] and I devoted 3 chapters and 31 pages to a
meeting that took place in the spring of '86. I don't profess,
Tom, to have been in charge of this operation. I just sort of
acquired knowledge, as anyone would over 15 months or so.

But basically, I couldn't see how this could be going on, at the
level it was, without state involvement. After I was involved a
little on the light of a year, I received an "accidental
promotion" as I call it, or a "field promotion", and was then put
in play with this guy, Bob Nash, who was a cabinet-level officer
of Clinton's government [in Arkansas.] He [Nash] wanted to know
how many flights were being flown, what the status of the
training was. So I knew at that point that the state was at least
"in the loop" from an informational level.

But the meeting in the spring of '86, that Clinton attended as we
were pulling out of Arkansas: He [Clinton] showed up unannounced,
uninvited. Bob Nash was supposed to attend to represent the
state, but he [Clinton] showed up to complain about certain
things -- and it takes a long time to discuss that. But
basically, he was in trouble politically that year and did not
want to be left with the "baggage", of the residue, of this
operation, coming out and blind-siding him during what was
turning out to be a very contested political uphill battle for
him in the spring of '86.

So based upon that meeting and the conversation that ensued, I
can say he knew all about it. Certainly he didn't appear to be
doing so hard to complain about the withdrawal of something if
you weren't aware of its presence to begin with. {12}.


TOM DONAHUE:
Well George Bush, I think it's been proven beyond a shadow of a
doubt, was "in the loop". Ollie North reported to him, George
Bush, "Mr. CIA". He was vice-President. He was put in place to
keep Reagan in check. {13}.

And so, it almost seems that the perfect successor to George Bush
would be Bill Clinton, *because* of his involvement -- not only
through Bilderbergs and TriLats [Trilateral Commission] and CFR
[Council on Foreign Relations] -- but because of what he knew and
to keep those secrets, secret indeed, in Arkansas.


TERRY REED:
That's exactly correct. I had lunch about 3 weeks ago with some
very interesting people in Washington. One of these men was the
actual drafter of what is called the "Reagan Doctrine". And he
made a statement that I thought was interesting. He said, you
know, George Bush would not have survived a second term. The
Iran-Contra affair was going to nail him in the first quarter of
the first year of his second term. At the rate Walsh [Lawrence
Walsh] was moving -- which, as this man said, was with the speed
of a glacier, uh he was going in a certain direction. And it was,
you know, the moment he nailed "Cap" Weinberger in (what, I
believe it was what, October or November of 1992?), the moment he
got to the President's men, the President was next. And that
decision had been made that Bush would basically *not* be re-
elected.


DONAHUE:
And Bush pardoned all the President's men.


REED:
Yes. I mean, what you've got is a President that, I mean, was
*told* to basically throw the match. You know, go out there as a
prize fighter and go out in the first round. Don't fight back.

As they sat there -- and these were Republican handlers! These
people, one is Dr. Jack Wheeler(sp?), who helped draft the Reagan
Doctrine. And I have no reason not to believe him as he sits
there and says, "These decisions were made. And [we] decided we
wanted Clinton in because we could control him, and eliminate him
in his first 4 years, and get a Republican back in after 4
years." And I thought, "Now this sounds like a master
intelligence plan to me." So I subscribe to that theory right
there.


DONAHUE:
Well many of us saw that George Bush didn't campaign. There was
no fight put up. He was a beleaguered horse to be put out to
pasture. But what you're saying *beyond* this -- and many
conspiracy theories that I *do* subscribe to -- is that he was
told, that George Bush was told, that it was his time to move on,
and Bill Clinton *was* selected at the Bilderberg meeting to be
the most likely candidate if the American people... The American
people still had to fit into the equation: they have to get the
right media, publicity, and certainly the right campaigning to
engineer this. But *you're* saying here that because of Iran-
Contra, because of the report that was due to be released, and
because of Mena and other things, George Bush *had* to leave. I
mean, there was...


REED:
That's right.


DONAHUE:
..I mean, he knew his political fortune was spent. And they
thought they could keep Bill Clinton in check and they had enough
dirt on him, the higher-ups that run this government behind the
scenes, that Clinton was the man. He was selected.


REED:
Well there was a famous study done by NASA, they were studying
the intelligence of chimpanzees -- you ever remember reading
about that? -- where a chimpanzee played tic-tac-toe with a
rhesus monkey. And the reward for winning was a banana. And the
tic-tac-toe game was dominated by the chimpanzee to the point
[that] the rhesus would quit to play, would quit playing.


DONAHUE:
Right.


REED:
And the chimp figured out he had to throw the game occasionally
to keep the rhesus' interest.

And I compare that to the Republicans being in the White House
for 12 years. If you stay in 16 [years], the people are gonna
probably get a pretty good idea that, I mean, the Democrats are
gonna field a strong candidate, probably seize power for at least
8 [years]. But if you allow a weak Democratic candidate to
elevate himself to that position {14}, chances are he'll only be
in 4 [years]... or less, as I think this is gonna turn out to be.
And the Republicans *will* be back in '96, if not sooner. And I
think that's the way it's gonna play out, personally.


DONAHUE:
Well actually, it would have to be '96. Although we might have Al
Gore replacing Billy Boy soon.

The millstone, truly, beyond "Whitewater rafting" {15}: Is it
gonna be Mena, Arkansas? Or is it gonna be... And I guess Mena as
well as the bond peddling that went on.


REED:
Well the first money audit of Arkansas is occurring right now.
There's never been a money audit into Arkansas' financial
business. Uh, there's... No one's ever had subpoena power to pull
back the layers of these relationships. And it's mine and John's
[John Cummings'] theory, and we certainly didn't intend our book
to be the vehicle to be used as a roadmap to "nuke" Bill Clinton.
But I think that's what it's gonna turn out to be is, our book is
already being compared to *Uncle Tom's Cabin* {16}. Sort of a
scarey statement, but it's becoming the research vehicle to
describe the behind-the-scenes relationships, the atmosphere in
Arkansas (for those that didn't live there in 1985, '86). The
atmosphere is captured there to understand that you're dealing
with this vertical chess game [i.e. many levels]. And I think,
what I've been saying, is Whitewater's gonna turn into
Blackwater. As the relationship of the CIA is exposed, that's
what's gonna ultimately destroy Bill Clinton, I think.


DONAHUE:
It's gonna be Deepwater for him, indeed. Deep "do-do". Quicksand,
if you will.

Terry Reed, John Cummings. We're gonna come back with their final
words. And we can squeeze a call or two in as well. Right back.

[...commercial break...]

TOM DONAHUE:
We're back. Tom Donahue, "America's Town Forum".

Clinton is a man of many contradictions. And I certainly think
that this book proves that he was a CIA asset. A CIA connection
here for sure. Maybe this might be his *darkest* secrets
unveiled. But we find many bodies that are showing up. Uh, Barry
Seal, among others.

I want to go back to a final word from John Cummings before we go
to Terry [Reed]. Go ahead, John.


JOHN CUMMINGS:
I just wanted to make the point, you were talking before about
"bringing the American people into the equation" and the decision
to go for Bill Clinton and the "getting the right media" -- One
of the things, obviously, that had to be done was to silence
Terry and to trash him and to keep him from talking. And *Time*
magazine did that for Clinton at a very critical time in the
Presidential campaign in 1992.


DONAHUE:
Didn't he use his best friend, Strobe Talbott, his former
roommate and who became ambassador-at-large and now second-in-
command at the State Department?


CUMMINGS:
That's the... That's who Strobe Talbott is.

And *Time* magazine, you know... It's astounding. A lot of people
pick it up and they said, "Why did they spend a whole page
trashing a guy that no one ever heard of?" {17}. And Mr. Clinton
obviously was very worried. One more scandal after Gennifer
Flowers and he was finished.


DONAHUE:
Is *Compromised* the true story of Bill Clinton's political
sellout to the CIA?


CUMMINGS:
Well I mean, Bill Clinton obviously did business with the CIA --
either for himself or because he felt he needed to do it for his
state. To me, I think of it as Bill Clinton's Faustian deal,
which just about everyone has to make to rise in the political
power world.


DONAHUE:
Bill Clinton denounces the '80s as the "decade of greed", and we
now know that he and Hillary participated greatly in that. He
also denounced the Iran-Contra figures and the mission and
purpose. And lo and behold! Bill Clinton pops up!


CUMMINGS:
More political hypocrisy.


DONAHUE:
Hypocrisy indeed.

John, I thank you for your participation today in the Town Forum.
And Terry, uh I want to take a quick call here. Alan, from
Boston. Go ahead, Alan.

Alan, you still with us?


ALAN:
Hello?


DONAHUE:
Go ahead, Alan.


ALAN:
Hi. You know, I do find it somewhat amusing that both of your
guests and yourself will criticize Clinton and Bush, but you
exempt President Reagan from any culpability or criticism in this
whole matter! I mean, it's under his stewardship that this policy
was invented!


DONAHUE:
Uh, I would agree "under his stewardship".


ALAN:
But you exempt him from any criticism here just because he's a
right-wing icon!


DONAHUE:
No he's not... I... He's no hero to me!


ALAN:
I mean, it makes no sense to me!


DONAHUE:
Well let me ask our guests, and see what they think.

Reagan's involvement. Do you think Reagan knew very much? Was
he... It *is* under his watch.


TERRY REED:
Well let me talk about the Reagan Doctrine. This man, Jack
Wheeler, who wrote the Reagan Doctrine (which was secret, by the
way, because you couldn't make it public because the Soviets
would know what our plans were)... The plan was to bankrupt the
USSR in 8 years. They figured out that the USSR would, in fact,
as he put it, "engage in mindless, senseless violence around the
world." They *would* get involved in Vietnam-style action as a
way of promoting their own policies. And the Reagan Doctrine
*was*, in fact, encouraging that kind of behavior: Afghanistan,
Angola, Nicaragua were examples of that. {18}.


DONAHUE:
One final note: On Ollie North -- Did Reagan sell him out? And
also, should people support Ollie North for United States Senate?


REED:
Well I... Was he a scapegoat? Certainly. Did he take a fall? Yes.
He was basically the G. Gordon Liddy of that scandal. Would I
vote for him? Yes. He's qualified, he's a liar. {19}.


DONAHUE:
Hmm... O.K.

I hope that you'll be in peace. I hope that you'll be in good
health. Because many that have exposed Bill Clinton found
themselves, not only their reputations besmirched (which they
try), but dead. I hope that you don't end up in a body bag.

And I thank you, Terry Reed, John Cummings. The book is
*Compromised*. It's available through us [...] Well worth your
time and read, when you have the time!

Tom Donahue, for "America's Town Forum".


--------------------------<< Notes >>----------------------------
{1} "...to train a small group of pilots, Nicaraguan nationals,
to basically liberate..." Depending on your point of view, this
could also be read as "liberate", i.e., that there was nothing to
liberate, that the Sandinistas were, in fact, the good guys.

{2} "All *I* saw was cash being flown back in." Here Reed means
while he was in Arkansas. When he later went down to Mexico and
saw that cocaine was being warehoused for shipment to the U.S.,
at that point he divorced himself from the operation.

{3} Mena, "...this little town of 5,000 people..." Future major
tourist attraction? See where it all happened! Bring the kids!

{4} "...court discovery..." I think this means that, because Reed
was under indictment at the time, because a defendant is entitled
to any evidence that will help prove his innocence, then prior to
trial Reed went through a "discovery process" during which he had
access to information that could be used in his defense. (Note
that Reed was later found "Not guilty".)

{5} "...the right hand of law enforcement fighting the left
hand." Just like our "War on Drugs", where the CIA brings the
drugs into the United States and the DEA tries to stop drugs
from being brought into the United States.

{6} Yes, the book is available through the bookstores or can be
ordered through them.

{7} Regarding Cuauhtemoc Cardenas: He did not win the election
for President of Mexico.

{8} "He [Mr. Rodriguez] has been *accused* of being involved in
drug operations, but... something he has steadfastly denied."
Then again, if he *were* involved, what's he gonna say -- "Yes,
it's true. (Sighs) You have caught me."

{9} "...he ["Kiki" Camarena] died, you know, for a cause." Yes,
he died for a cause, but for whose cause? I recommend a couple of
books by another DEA agent, Mike Levine (*Deep Cover*, and *The
Big White Lie*). Mr. Levine was fortunate in that he finally saw
through the sham of our "War on Drugs" and got out of it while
still alive, unlike the unfortunate Mr. Camarena.
   From the October 26, 1993, "Conspiracy for the Day":

  [BFR -- Mike Levine, author of *Deep Cover* (see part 2 of
  today's CfD) spoke at the university where I was an
  undergraduate in 1991. Following are excerpts from the
  student newspaper's report of his talk.]

  Former DEA Agent: "Drug war all a show"
  by Paul Kirk, Staff Reporter

  "The drug war's a sham," said former Drug Enforcement Agent
  Mike Levine at the Holmes Student Center Tuesday night.

  Levine hinted that those in the DEA who come too close to
  the political reality of the drug war sometimes mysteriously
  lose their lives.

  Levine recalled the time a former agent, Sandy Barrio, was
  accused by the DEA of drug smuggling. He died of strychnine
  poisoning while awaiting trial.

  But Barrio's death certificate was fixed to read that he
  died of asphyxiation on a peanut butter sandwich, Levine
  said.

  "I threw my life to the winds believing in the war against
  drugs. If I died, I believed I was dying for a just cause,"
  Levine said.

  "I realized the reality of what I was doing never quite
  matched what the public was seeing," he said.

  Levine cited a mission which he followed into Asia during
  the Vietnam War.

  The bodies of dead soldiers were being used for containers
  to ship heroin back to the United States. Levine
  investigated the deal all the way to the production line
  where he was stopped by his superiors.

  Levine said he experienced such evasion techniques by his
  superiors throughout his career. He said he watched the
  values of the drug war plummet into oblivion.

  "DEA was designed to put itself out of business but that
  doesn't happen. The opposite happens. It's always 'we need
  more,'" he said.

  "The drug war programs are ill-conceived. All that
  politicians are is parrots," said Levine.

  "It's all a show. 'We need more money. We're going to get
  these guys,'" Levine said, mimicking the politicians. "The
  drug war is the laughing stock of South America."

  Levine said the United States needs to direct the money
  designated for the drug war toward domestic problems which
  breed the drug problem. He said he believes small community
  involvement is the key.

{10} "...Harry Truman is the man that formed the CIA." This is
our Karma: Truman, representing us as our President, drops the
bomb on Hiroshima and Nagasaki. In return, to pay off our Karmic
debt, we get the CIA.

{11} "...with the USSR no longer in business and the fight over
plutonium and everything else..." Could explain the reports of
Russian military equipment being seen in the U.S., as is being
thoroughly covered by *The Spotlight*. We know there is a Russian
mafia that is "asset stripping", i.e., selling state property on
the black market. Suppose the U.S. is buying Russian military
equipment at bargain prices from the new Russian mafia: Would the
U.S. government admit to this?
   U.S. government buys Russian military items from the Russian
mafia, brings these items to the U.S., items are seen, alarm is
sounded: Russian military equipment in U.S.! What will the U.S.
government do, admit they bought the equipment on the black
market? Or will they do their usual denials, and thereby
(inadvertently) further inflame anxieties regarding the presence
of Russian military equipment?

{12} From the book (*Compromised*, by Terry Reed & John Cummings):

    Now the meeting was starting to turn into a shouting
    match. Terry [Reed] quietly observed that Clinton
    appeared on the verge of losing his well-rehearsed,
    statesman-like demeanor. Stopping investigations around
    Mena had helped the CIA and its bosses in Washington,
    but it had not solved any of the governor's local
    political problems. And these same problems were
    threatening to unveil the Mena operations. [Chapter 17,
    "New Covenant", p. 230.]

{13} "He [Bush] was put in place to keep Reagan in check." Here's
what Bo Gritz has to say (from Conspiracy for the Day, March 11,
1994, *excerpts only*):

  In Mesa, I met with him [Cleon Skaas(?)] and I said, "Why in
  the world did Ronald Reagan sell us down the tube by taking
  George Bush as his running mate?" And I really didn't know
  that Cleon knew Ronald Reagan rather well. But he told me: He
  said, "Bo, George Bush was Ronald Reagan's greatest
  opponent," (if you'll remember, back in the 1980 elections),
  "and Ronald Reagan said he would never have him. Then, Ronald
  Reagan was invited to New York to go see Rockefeller. When he
  saw Rockefeller, he was told, 'If you do not take my head of
  the Trilateral Commission'" (remember, the Council on Foreign
  Relations, George Bush) "'as your running mate, the only way
  you'll see the inside of the White House is as a tourist.'"

  "Now, when you read Kitty Calley's junk about the Reagan
  family, even if one percent of it is true, you can see a man
  with great vanity wouldn't want that dirty laundry exposed.
  And who even knows the vice-President? So I honestly thought
  Ronald Reagan said, 'Well, George Bush will never hurt any of
  us. Because I'm going to be President.'"

  [...]

  Two months after he was inaugurated, two months is all that
  Ronald Reagan lasted. March 30th, 1981, two months after his
  inauguration in January of 1981, he was shot -- was he not?
  And the news said that he was shot by John Hinckley, jr. and
  that John Hinckley, jr. was some kind of a Jodie Foster
  freak. And that he came out of nowhere, and that he shot
  Brady in the head, and he shot a policeman in the neck, and
  he shot a Secret Service man and blew him back over the
  vehicle, and he shot Ronald Reagan. Right?

  [...]

  When Brady was shot, no question. Here we've got John
  Hinckley, jr. Oh, by the way, is John Hinckley, jr. just some
  kind of a "weirdo?" Isn't it strange that John Hinckley, sr.
  is the owner of Vanderbilt Oil? And, of course, George Bush
  is the owner of Zapata Oil. Was it a coincidence, then, that
  John Hinckley, sr. and George Bush are neighbors *for years*
  in Houston, Texas, working together? Is it any coincidence
  that John Hinckley, sr., when you go back through the FEC,
  the Federal Election Commission, his own record of giving
  maximum donations every year to Mr. Bush even when he started
  running for Congress. Well now, does that make his son, John
  Hinckley, jr. seem a little bit less of a coincidence? I
  think it does. Here's why:

  When the President was shot, if you'll remember, he was
  pushed into the car by a man named Jerry Parr(sp?) that was
  his Secret Service guard. Jerry Parr fell on top of him and,
  I just saw in the *Reader's Digest* where Jerry Parr was
  telling his "valiant story." And the limousine tore off,
  didn't it? Now it was *five minutes later* that the ambulance
  arrived and they put the Secret Service man, the Washington,
  D.C. policeman, and Brady in the ambulance and *it* roared
  off. Using normal time-rate/distance, who should have arrived
  at George Washington University Hospital first? The President
  should have. Well, who did? You know it's a trick question.
  The ambulance arrived 15 minutes before the President. When
  asked, "What happened?" the Secret Service simply responded,
  "We got lost."

  The Secret Service does not get lost in Washington, D.C. They
  don't get lost in most places of the world. And so, now the
  investigation starts to get a little interesting. When they
  take Ronald Reagan in, they can see that he... matter of
  fact, his heart almost stopped. And he is convulsing; there's
  blood on his lips. They know he's hurt... seriously. But they
  can find no wounds. They X-ray him *3 times* and can find
  nothing.

  Finally, a nurse notices a tiny entrance wound right at the
  seventh rib, underneath the armpit. And a doctor takes a
  probe, and by... very carefully, because they couldn't see it
  on X-ray, the doctor is able to extract what he said was a
  planchet, thinner than a dime, that was one-quarter inch from
  Ronald Reagan's aorta.

  Now, Ronald Reagan says... as a matter of fact, let me just
  see if I can just read it to you... best what Ronnie says.
  I've got all this in the book... This came right out of a
  newspaper:

    I knew I had been hurt, but I thought that I'd been hurt
    by the Secret Service man landing on me in the car. As
    it was, I must say it was the most paralyzing pain. I've
    described it as if someone hit you with a hammer. But
    the sensation, it seemed to me, came after I was in the
    car and so I thought that maybe his gun or something had
    broken a rib. I set up on the seat, and the pain
    wouldn't go away -- and suddenly, I found I was coughing
    up blood.

  Now you see, to almost anyone else you might say, "Well, just
  some kind of a fluke." But I'm a skeptic. Because I know how
  these things have happened ever since they "took out" John
  Fitzgerald Kennedy. I think maybe JFK was the last honest
  President that we had...

{14} "But if you allow a weak Democratic candidate to elevate
himself to that position..." As also with Carter. Carter and
Clinton, both Governors, both unfamiliar with the Washington
scene, both novices.
   We have (1) JFK, a Democrat, gets killed; (2) Johnson is
somehow controlled so a serious investigation of the JFK
assassination doesn't happen; (3) Nixon, a Republican. No serious
investigation of the JFK assassination; (4) Carter, a Democrat.
Finally, an attempt is made at a serious investigation, but
hidden forces seek to hamper it; (5) Reagan and Bush, no
investigation; (6) Clinton. Claims to be a reincarnation of JFK,
but why no investigation nor any moves in that direction?
Instead, Clinton does a rare thing: promotes the movie "Line of
Fire" which supports the official version of the JFK
assassination. How often does a President go out of his way to
endorse a movie?
   Also, after the movie "JFK" came out, reporters asked Bush
what he thought of it. Here's Bush: "Huh? A movie called 'JFK'
did you say?"

{15} "Whitewater rafting". This seems to be a euphemism for the
public perception of Whitewater (i.e. a land deal gone sour)
versus the deeper complexities of drug and gun running, murder,
intimidation, etc. In other words, "Whitewater rafting" conjures
up an innocent perception, or indeed a *surface* perception --
*rafting*. But beneath the surface there is much more.

{16} "*Uncle Tom's Cabin*" A bestselling book from the time of
the American Civil War. The book had an enormous popular reaction.

{17} Regarding *Time* magazine: Also did a smear on Uri Geller in
the 1970s; also praised Posner's *Case Closed* to the skies; also
did a ridiculous story on Larry Nichols quite recently. As my
uncle used to say: "*Life* [magazine] is for people who can't
read. *Time* [magazine] is for people who can't think."

{18} Reed's answering of the caller's original question is cut
off by Donahue due to time constraints.

{19} "[Ollie North] Would I vote for him? Yes. He's qualified,
he's a liar." Reed's last statement is enigmatic. Because time
has run out, clarification never follows the "He's qualified,
he's a liar."


 Brian Francis Redman    [e-mail]    "The Big C"
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"Justice" = "Just us" = "History is written by the assassins."
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(This file was found elsewhere on the Internet and uploaded to the
Radio Free Michigan site by the archive maintainer.

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